Former atheist, Swedish physicist Krister Renard dismissed God at a young age, believing science was the key to understanding reality.  In his pursuit of knowledge, he came to see that the universe demanded a greater explanation, eventually believing in God.  

In this testimony, Krister Renard shares his journey from atheism to Christianity, sparked by his intellectual curiosity and deepened by personal experiences of love and suffering. Initially dismissing the idea of God due to the problem of evil, Renard's exploration of science, mathematics, and eventually the Bible led him to recognize a divine creator and embrace Christianity. His story emphasizes the importance of intellectual engagement, personal experiences of God's love, and the role of friends in guiding one towards faith.

Krister's Resources:

• website: www.gluefox.com

Krister's mentioned Resources:

• C.S. Lewis, Mere Christianity

Listen to more stories from skeptics and atheists who investigated Christianity.

Brought to you by the C.S. Lewis Institute and eX-skeptic.

Transcript

Welcome to Side B Stories, Krister, it's so great to have you with me today. Thank you very much for getting started. I'm sure that our listeners can already detect a little bit of an accent that's not American. Let me start that again.

As we're getting started, Krister, would you give us a little bit of information and introduction to who you are, perhaps where you live and the kind of work that you have done in your career?

Yes, OK, well, I was born a long time ago in 1942 and I grew up in Stockholm and in those days Sweden was a little bit backwards perhaps, when I was 12 around I decided that there is no God because my reasoning was that if God is almighty and good, he would have the power to stop all evil and make the world good by force, so to speak. I didn't of course understand them, that the problem is much wider than that, but that's what was how I reasoned. So therefore I dismissed God because if he was not almighty, He couldn't be the Creator. And then why should I believe in a weak God? And if he was almighty, then he permitted evil, and then he must be evil himself. And I didn't like an evil God, so I became an atheist in young years.

And Sweden already in those years was rather atheistic country,

As you were growing up, you decided at age 12 that there was no God there perhaps that there couldn't be a good or powerful God if evil existed. I'm wondering as, at 12 of course, that's fairly young as a young man.  Did you did your family have any faith or religion.

Well, I grew up with my grandparents mostly and my grandfather, he went to church every Sunday and he used to bring me there. And of course when I was maybe 7 years old, 6-7 years old, and then I probably believed in God. I don't really remember, but I didn't deny him anyhow. But it was, I think it was around 12 when I maybe I had read something or there was a lot of atheistic debates going on in Sweden. We had a professor, he wrote the book, the title was Faith and Science and he was an atheist and he tried to prove that there is no God. And that book, even many Christians left their faith when they had read the book.  It was a very damaging book and his arguments are, in my opinion today very, very weak. So it's impossible to understand how a Christian can leave his faith because of that book, but that is the way it was.

So you grew up with your grandparents who had some kind of expressed faith

When I was eight, my grandfather died. he died a believer I am sure. And my uncle, he was an expressed atheist, almost you could say an aggressive atheist.

So by the time that you were 12 and you rejected the idea of God, that was something that was comfortable even in your own home, a way of thinking.

Yes, but maybe I was influenced by something I had heard or read etcetera, so. I remember that very well when I had those thoughts about God's almightiness and his whether he was evil or good. But the Bible says I knew that of course that the Bible says He is almighty and he is all also good. And I didn't couldn't understand how that could be. And that was why I dismissed Christianity. And of course, that is for many people a problem

It's a huge problem for many people who can't understand how there could be a good and powerful God and yet see all of the suffering in the world. Of course, you had to experience some of that personally as well, I guess. Losing your grandfather for one, you know. It wasn't just a logical refutation. It was something that you felt personally in some ways. Yeah. So you were a young man of 12 years old and you were also in a school. I, I presume, if Sweden was expressly atheistic. What did they teach in school?

Well, when I went in junior high school, it, the change came when I entered high school, but before that we had a subject at school which title was Christianity. But of course, Christianity included all religions. It was not only Christianity, but most of the time was used for for dealing with Christianity, but then they changed the name to. I'd say history or religion is the main now. So now of course it's totally neutral.

So during school you had some limited exposure to what they called Christianity, but it was really an amalgamation of religious belief. So you weren't convinced by anything that you were hearing in school? And you had an expressed interest in science, the sciences and technology. What what were you learning in that regard? And did it have any relationship to your understanding of who God was or not?

Well, I was, uh, interested in physics and mathematics and technology like I think a lot of boys are and. And I didn't really think about religion anymore because I had dismissed it. So it was not something I dealt with actively. It was just something that were buried very deep. But when I went to junior high school, for instance. In that subject Christianity. I had the highest grade every year in that. So I was interested in those questions, but I didn't believe there was a God. I mean, you can be interested in religion without being a believer, yes.

So and a lot of people I think I I know today, a lot of friends I have are not believers, but they think that all those stories in the Bible, they are fantastic.

In their minds, they're just fairy tales or, or, or really fiction, fictional accounts of some sort. Good, just good story.

Well. Yeah, I think not only because I mean, they know that the Old Testament is also the history of the Jews. So I think that they believe that a lot of those things happened. It really happened. And of course, yes, if you are an atheist, you must find an atheistic explanation, otherwise you have to leave your atheism and become a believer. So to be able to keep your unfaith, you must explain away everything

So as you were growing up And you were becoming more interested in sciences and math and technology. And evidently, I mean, you were scoring well in your religious study class and you had those questions. So was there some respect in some way for religion and Christianity or what during this time? You didn't believe God existed? What did you think religion and Christianity was? Or how did you perceive religious believers?

Well, I perceive them that they believed. I mean, I didn't judge them in any way. They had other opinions. And I when I went to high school, there was a Christian group there and we had a lot of discussions about faith. And I remember that because my belief was that if there is a God, if the Christianity is true, you must accept Christianity to 100%. You cannot deny the miracles because if you try to deny the miracles in the Bible, there is nothing left because if Jesus didn't. Very good. If you only died and then stayed died, there would be no Christianity, no salvation, nothing.

But I have met and even in that group, I remember I asked them, for instance, do you really believe that Jesus walked on the water? And they said “No of course not. That the science has proved that that it's impossible. But people in those days were so superstitious, so they believed anything.” And I remember if they try to win me by that way of augmenting, they had really added because that turned me off because I always thought about it was that it was kind of a betrayal of, of what they believed. In other other words, you must believe or you not believe, but you can't be in between there and that. That was my how I saw it even as an atheist.

You know that that really is quite an interesting insight and perspective because so many, I mean, this is probably a conversation for another day, but so many people try to compromise or water down Christianity thinking it's, it will be more palpable to the unbeliever or the non believer. But in your perspective as an atheist, you thought, OK, you're just totally compromising yourself. It's either it's either true or it's not, but don't give me something watered down in between.

Exactly. And had they said to me, “Yes, we believe that Jesus walked on the water because a God who has created the universe from nothing, wouldn't he be able to make exceptions from natural law? That this inconsequent” maybe I would have been become Christian already at that moment. So they turned me off. They tried to tried to make it easy for me to become a Christian and instead the effect was the opposite.

Interesting, wow. no, that that that's very perceptive and very telling and I and I and I hope there are many who really hear that and understand it because I think there's so many well intended of Christians who think by making it a softer kind of truth or gospel that that they will attract others. But in actuality what they're doing is they're pushing people away. So. Yeah. Yeah. So, so you grew up as a young man interested in science and technology and math, and it sounds like you, you moved in that direction. Tell me then what did you end up doing after high school?

Well, after high school I had my military service for one year and a half I think it was. Also military police and that was an interesting experience. And when I had done that. I wanted to have adventures, so I did a lot of things. I went to work on ships for a short while and then I started working as teacher because in those days in Sweden there were a lack of teachers and I had my high school exam was the highest level of mathematics, so I could get a job even without an exam as a teacher. I could get a job in any school in those days. So I worked as a teacher for some years and I liked a lot of teaching and I, I have done that a lot in my life so. Uh, so that was very interesting. And then I did things, climbing mountains, jump parachutes, everything you can do for adventures. But this I used to say that at 25, I mean when I was I was 18, I was a young man with a promising future in front, before me. But when I was 25, I was a young man with a promising future behind me. Because if you want to make your career, you must start start the directly after high school. So. But I was so tempted by adventures and the girls and everything. So then I started to become a radio officer on ships because that is better than working in the kitchen, as I did with the galley in the beginning. So I read them myself. To the exam for a radio officer started myself, so then I was for about two years on on ships and working as a radio officer and went all over the world.

And then when I came home, I was, I think 29. And then I started to study mathematics and physics for a lot of years. But the interesting thing was that I had thought that when I studied mathematics and got into the depths of mathematics and physics, I would understand more, but in reality I understand less and less. There was someone who studied quantum physics and he thought this it was very difficult to understand. And then he started a higher course in very abstract course in quantum physics. And afterwards he said, “Well I am even more confused now, but on the higher level” So actually, the more you go into things, the more complicated they are. Then you understand less and, but you also feel that you understand this. But of course you understand more and more. But it's, it's, it's a frustration because for every, everything you understand. You will find 10 new things you don't understand, and when you have understood them, you will have 10 new things you know. So it never ends, almost because it's so enormously complicated.

But when I studied physics and came up on graduate courses and I, I found. I started to study elementary particle physics and I found that the laws of elementary particle physics, they were like, this can't be just randomness, the chaotic system can't have so beautiful laws. And I remember. I had a really religious experience, although God maybe was involved, but not in my consciousness. And because I studied a proof in, in particle physics.  It's, you know, it's a method that is called the group representation theory. It's very abstract and complicated and this proof was also beautiful. So, I started to weep on the beauty of it. And I almost, I sensed a feeling of almost a religious feeling that this was so fantastic. So actually science, it was science that drew me to God because I realized by that, that there must be something behind everything. And that was the same for Einstein. I mean, he never became a Christian as far as I know, but he always believed that there was an intelligence, a superior intelligence behind the universe, because this fantastic universe cannot be just randomness, right?

So did you start then after that almost encounter with the majesty of the universe, the complexity and the beauty, did you start to question your materialistic understanding of the world that matter is all there is. Or did you have a trouble explaining where the laws of nature came from? Or did any of those questions arise in your mind?

Well, not right then. For me, t I experienced it as a kind of feeling or beauty. I wasn't aware then that it might have been a supernatural feeling, but afterwards I have of course thought on that. So I became from being an atheist and became an agnostic because I realized that I don't know if there is a God or not.

And I mean, of course, this is the CS Lewis. He was an amazing man. Yeah, I remember he even said that when he was an atheist, he was angry on God because God didn't exist. That's quite interesting. Absolutely. Well, so. So I became an agnostic, but open minded and CS Lewis, he talks about how God can use suffering like a megaphone. I mean when we are well, when we are happy, everything we are not open to God. If we are not already Christians, of course, but an atheist that is happy is not searching for God. So sometimes God doesn't send suffering, but he can't use suffering for because then people will listen. And that was what happened to me because that was in 1975. Uh, first my one of my best friends committed suicide, then my best friend was killed in an accident and a girl who I knew very well was sex murdered in a very brutal way.

And that was, I mean quite tough for me and that was the reason why I stopped my studies, because I got an offering of becoming a teacher at the Merchant Marine Academy Stockholm before teaching radio technology and similar subjects. So I switched that, but it was a difficult time for me. And then I came in contact with the Christian man in my own age and we had a good discussion. And then he said that I ought to read the Bible to know what I'm denying, he said ‘I don't know exactly about how do you know that Christianity is false if you haven't read the Bible?’ So I said OK, I will read the Bible. So we met and maybe once a week, once every second week, and I read the Bible from page one and then we talked about what I had read then. Sometimes he could explain the things I didn't understand. Sometimes he didn't understand either.

So after two years, I read through all the Bible. And then I had my conclusion was that I thought this was true. I had thought the Bible would be full of contradictions and the crazy stuff and everything. But everything I read was really gave me an understanding of the world or the human nature and I had read many, many books about politics, Das Capital by Marx and everything. What They didn't give me the same feeling. They gave me just the feeling these are human thoughts, which are, by the way, not true either. But when I read the Bible, I experienced it. It was God who spoke to me very strongly. So then I decided to become a Christian.

Wow. OK, so OK, there's a lot there, there. First, after this experience of realizing that perhaps there's more than just this natural world, that there may be, there may be a God behind it all. There had to be some better explanation, or bigger explanation that you actually had some kind of encounter with or had some kind of experience. So, you became agnostic.  Open towards another perspective. These really horrible things happened in your life, it is is a little curious to me that you would remain open, particularly since at age 12 you rejected God on the logical premise that God could not exist in the face of evil and suffering but yet here evil and suffering happened in your life. You didn't turn away at that point from God. You actually became open to read the Bible, which is curious to me. You know, of course a Christian came in your life and challenged you. How do you know whether or not it's true and challenged you to read the Bible, but I am impressed that I just want to say at this point to say you didn't shut down because of a prior logical impossibility of God. You had an experience of loss and great suffering and you saw perhaps, that there's something more in the world scientifically, but that you were willing to actually move forward in a way to look at what was true rather than just dismiss God out of hand.

My studies, graduate studies made me open for that. There can be something more than material and energy and this suffering, these losses I had in 1975 made me open because I needed help, so to speak, and then that God sent this Christian guy to me and he helped me, so to speak, to put me on the on the right track. So there were like three different factors involved.

Yes, absolutely. And I'm, and I'm also impressed because you took the challenge from your friend, you know, to, to actually read it for yourself and that you invested time with him. You were both learning, it sounds like, and growing in your study together, which I also appreciate. It wasn't as if he was there giving you all the answers. It was like you were you were actually looking at the Bible together and discussing it and moving along by side by side to really see. Did God exist? You know, and, and I'm impressed too, that you had a presumption about what you thought the Bible was, but when you actually read it for yourself, it was something so much more and something so much different than you and had anticipated. Actually enough to the point where you were became convinced that it was true.  Now when you say you came to a point when you believed that the Scripture was true, you're saying miracles and all.

Yes, of course, because it's quite interesting that when you read liberal theologians who dismiss miracles because they say it's goes against natural law. But the physicist would never say that. The theologians who are not physicists, they are telling us physicists what is possible or not. But physical laws are about how matter behaves under normal circumstances. There is nothing that says that there won't be exceptions from the natural law. Nothing in physics. A physicist can say I don't believe in a miracle, but that this is not because I'm a physicist, that is because I don't believe in miracles as a human being because physics cannot prove neither the existence more than normal existence or miracles. That is beyond science. Science has a limited area where it works, but outside that area science is blind.

And that is because what is science? Human beings have decided what is science.  During thousands of years, we have accumulated knowledge and we have learned a lot when studying nature and we have put up rules how should we do to get the best results out of what we call science. And we have a lot of roles, peer review, etcetera, etcetera, proving things by biologic postulates. Etcetera. And that is the scientific method, but that method excludes all supernatural things because they cannot be studied by physics, they can't be measured. We have no instruments that can observe God, for instance, and therefore we cannot deal with such things in science. We must exclude them, because otherwise science will be very uncertain. Science must be very sure of its conclusions. But that also means that it's not possible to say there is no God because science cannot see God. That is, we have chosen to define science as not being able to see God. That is like a blind man should say there are no colors because I can't see them. But there are colors, but he can't see them, and there might be a God. Science can by definition not see God, and therefore science cannot have to be silent about God, because science has no right to speak about God, because science can cannot observe God. So, science is neutral regarding God.

Yes, that's a beautiful explanation, but that's not often times what you hear from atheists and culture.

But they are they are ignorant because a real physicist, even if he's an atheist, would when I said what I said right now, he will say I agree 100%, but he doesn't believe anyhow. But he believes in my way of reasoning and in my logical conclusions. So therefore you cannot use science to exclude God. That that is a misuse of science.

Is it a true statement to say that, that there are certain realities or assumptions given that scientists must make in order to even use the scientific enterprise, the method of the methodology of science, to presume order and rationality and predictability and just the laws of nature and explaining where those come from. Is that a difficult thing for someone who doesn't believe in God to explain?

I mean, there should be no problem because whether you're a believer or not, when you work in your laboratory, you do the same things because even a Christian scientist excludes supernatural explanations in his scientific work. Because let's say that you want to construct a new car engine, and you have a new theory which you will apply to your new engine. You cannot use miracles when you want to construct a machine that shall be used by millions of people because I don't think God will make miracles with all those engines, even if he made a miracle with one engine. So, science cannot lean on miracles or supernatural things. But that doesn't mean that you deny the existence of miracles or supernatural things.

 Exactly so in science is there's agency and there's mechanism, right? There are different kinds of explanations.

They complement one another. The world is so complex, so you cannot understand aspects of the world with one theory, with one perspective, you have to use different perspectives to understand and that is called complementarity, and you can say science answers the question how and religion answers the question why.  Yes, so they answer different questions and religion can explain things.

For instance, what is love? Science cannot explain love. It can maybe explain sexual desire and certain aspects of certain types of love, but it cannot. Explain the love of Mother Teresa. Why does a a woman go to India and gives her life to help dying people on the streets? And so, I mean, both those perspectives are needed. So even if atheism was true, it would need to be complete, complement with some other perspective because the world is so complex.

So back to your story then you became convinced that what you were reading in the Bible was true, and that meant that that God existed, that God came to earth in the form of a man, Jesus Christ. And part of Christianity, of course, is that you submit your life or give your life to this God-man Jesus, who came and worked miracles and actually gave his life for you that it's a very personal, personal acknowledgement and acceptance of of his work on the cross for you and for your sin and for all of the brokenness in the world.   Was that, you know, taking it from an intellectual to a more personal level, was that something easy for you to accept once you understood it intellectually, to take it on personally?

When I became Christian, I didn't have any spiritual experiences it was more logical reasons. I had read the Bible and concluded this is I believe this is true, although it's not the materialistic perspective, but I still believe it is true. But it was maybe four years later I was at a Christ in a church in in Sweden and I had taken the communion and was on my way back and suddenly. Came upon me a feeling of love it was such a strong feeling that I felt power. I'm going to die now, I thought, and in the endless moment. It was maybe only second, but for me it was a long time. It was like God showed me his love, His love for me, His love for all human being and his love for the creation and what He did. So, it was an immense experience and I remember that for months afterwards, very, very, very strong. So that was my first spiritual experience.

It's interesting too, because in in reading your story, it sounds like you weren't in a Pentecostal or charismatic tradition when that happened, that it was unexpected. It wasn't contrived. It wasn't coerced, that it was something that came on obviously supernaturally that that you were not expecting.

Yeah, yes. No, and that I think that was God knows who I am. I can be critical sometimes or myself and all of other things, but in this way that I experienced this thing in a surrounding that was not experienced. It was only I who experienced this. So that was a strong proof for me because if I would have been in a Pentecostal church I might have suspected for the rest of my life that these was just mass suggestion. But now I can't explain it like that. It must have been a real spiritual experience I had because of that.

I guess coming from a place where you had been intellectually convinced that God existed and Christianity was true, you had a basis through which you could understand that spiritual experience in a meaningful way. Rather than well, it's interesting too, you know, I'm that was a different kind of experience than you than you describe in your just being overwhelmed with the majesty of creation in a sense that at that, at that moment, we realized there was something more, but you didn't have a name or a personal God to attach to that kind of experience. But at this time, you know you would. A lot of water had gone under the bridge. You had studied, you had been intellectually convinced, you had become a Christian.

And so the spiritual experience made complete sense to you in light of what you then knew? Yeah, yes. Yeah, it sounds like it would be a phenomenal experience and a life changing one at that. And again, I love the fact that you had some grounding for that it wasn't your faith isn't grounded on experience alone, but it's both, right? It's knowing that it's true and then experiencing it as true.

Exactly. I think God wants both. In my case, I started intellectually and then I got this supernatural experience.

Faith is really it's something more than experience, it's more than intellect, right? It is really a fully orbed. Understanding of yourself, of reality, of your, your relationship with God, everything altogether. It's kind of like what you said again at the beginning where, where there's, there are those Christians who try to kind of reduce Christianity in a way to make it palpable. But but as you said, it's kind of an all or nothing thing. Even as CS Lewis says, if it's only moderately important, it's not worth believing. But it's really infinitely important if it's true. He said it much better than me, of course. So, for you it seems as if it's really infinitely important.

 You have turned your life and spent your life since that those that conversion it sounds like teaching and lecturing and writing with regard not only to you. You've written very at high levels with regard to science and physics, but you also write in relationship to the relationship of science to faith and and really contending for the reality of God.

Yeah, for for 30 years I traveled I and around Scandinavia and the lecturing at universities, churches, schools, high schools, etc., about faith and science.

Yes and what a gift I'm sure that has been to so many people that you've been able to bring clarity to that, that it's not just science or God, but it's actually both together and it makes it makes it pretty wonderful so it.

Krister, if there was a skeptic who was listening, who was open like you were at one point in your life, what would you say to him in terms of how could he start to make sense of the possibility of, of the reality of God or that science actually works in tandem with God in terms of a full explanation of reality or something that you know well. What would be a good step for someone to learn more? Would it be opening the Bible like you did or how can someone best pursue belief?

Well, if you read in Swedish, you could read on my homepage. I have a lot of articles about that. Yes, but I mean he could also read Mere Christianity by CS Lewis for instance. An excellent introduction I think, But one important thing which has for me been very, very important. If, if you would ask me why are you a Christian, I would my answer would be very clearly, because I believe it is true. That is the reason. And I remember I once was in a school class talking about faith in science and one of the students when I was finished, there was a questioning. They could put questions to me, and he said you try to prove that the Bible is true just because you're a Christian. And then I told him, no, it is the opposite. I am a Christian because I believe that the Bible is true. And that is a very important distinction.

Yes, yes, absolutely. It's not some kind of circular reasoning or because you want it to be true, right?

No, exactly.

So finally, when I think of your story and I think about the role that that maybe Christians played in your story, it seems like there was that one friend that you encountered who challenged you to think about what is true if you are seeker of truth. You read the Bible, you know, and, and he actually invested time with you every week or so reading through the Bible in a humble way together that you were both learning side by side.

Exactly, yeah, yeah, we all of course we became friends of course, and we are still friends and although he lives in Sweden, but we used to see one another when I am in Sweden.

Yeah, that's really so beautiful, really that kind of friendship. You've spoken over the years and the decades how we as Christians can commend the Christian faith, whether it's with regard to science and faith together or the grounding for God or miracles or whatever, or reading the Bible. How would you commend us as Christians to effectively engage with those who don't believe who are skeptical? I think you know you've lived in a skeptical world for many years. What would you recommend?

Well, I think that not all people are open. You can only reach people who are open. But I believe that God gives every human being an opportunity when she is open and can say yes So, I think the best way is that you do this by friendship like you my friend did to me, that you have a friend perhaps who is interested on the uh, or you talk about things. I have found that it's not so efficient to be very aggressive in trying to preach the gospel because then people will just shut down. But you can when you talk to people, you can during a discussion come with an outcome, with an argument that that is relevant but also points toward Christianity. So, you can use the opportunities.

If you're a teacher, you're not supposed to evangelize among the students normally because that that is not allowed. But when you teach in physics, you can ask questions. How could this happen? What how come that mathematics is so efficient in describing the world that it even can predict? Things that are not actually in the mathematics itself.

How is it that mathematics can describe the real physical world in such a fantastic way? Like chess, for instance, is the rules of chess. They cannot say anything about the real world. But the rules are mathematics, they are invented by human beings. Like the rules of chess, but they can tell us things about the real world, and the only explanation I can find here is that there must be a creator, a designer who has created a universe that is mathematical in its very foundation. And that is for me a very strong argument for the existence of the Creator.

Yes, you know, it strikes me that Krister, you have throughout your journeying, throughout your intellectual and spiritual journey, that you had in essence eyes to see, that you were curious, that you have a curious mind and that you're a truth seeker and that you want to make sense of reality. And so that when you see something, um, you're, you were open to the idea of the possibility of the need for a creator or, or that you can see how the pieces fit together. And that you're looking for the best explanation for reality.

 And it sounds like that you have found that as compared to say, you know, we listen to atheists or staunch atheists like Lawrence Krauss or Richard Dawkins who might admit to the majesty almost the magic. What they call the magic of the universe, but yet they're not willing to even grant the possibility of something grand behind that magic or that majesty. But you were, you are and, and I just am so impressed with where it has led you to this very large grand, cohesive understanding of reality, how you can now you now have eyes to see how even mathematics, the elegance of it and the efficiency of it all points, you know, it comes together in a in a whole, in a coherent. That that things make sense now because God is part of that whole understanding of reality.

And, and I, and I do appreciate that about your story that again, that you, you were open that, that, that, that your heart was open. And when God showed you to take a step forward or encourage you that you did. And then he even showed up in extraordinary ways like that spiritual experience just surrounding you and giving that experience of really palpable love. The whole thing is just beautiful Krister, and I'd so appreciate you coming on today to talk about your story, to tell us of your journey. Is there anything else that you want to add before we close

Uh, well, you mentioned Dawkins and I think he is in a sense a very honest man and a real truth seeker. But, uh, his criticism of Christianity is based not on Christianity. About his own misunderstanding of Christianity. He doesn't criticize Christianity. He criticizes his own false image of Christianity, and that is his problem.

Yeah, I think that's a really great clarification there because I, I, I do think and in my experience with former athesits and listened to so many stories, there are a lot of people out there who have misunderstandings of what Christianity is. So, yeah, and, and sometimes when they and so they're closed off, I guess to, to even any possibility of God.  But again, just to, to reaffirm your journey and your willingness to, to actually have your perhaps misunderstandings corrected, you know, to get a fuller and clearer understanding like you said, you know, sometimes when you look into knowledge and and science, for example, like you said, you, you realize how much you don't know but in this case, you continued, you continued to seek after truth despite the fact that in any area of life knowledge, our knowledge, is limited and we realize by seeking and searching, there's so much we don't know. But at the end of that you found God, the one who does know all and he's allowed you to know him not only intellectually, but personally. And I'm so grateful for that. I'm so very grateful for that. Thank you so much. Yes, thank you so much Krister for coming and telling your story.

 You're welcome and thank you for a nice conversation and also the opportunity because Christians, I think it is your duty to also try to spread the good news and tell your story for people.

Yes, I heartily agree. So thank you so much for coming on to tell your story.

OK, OK. You're so welcome.

Okay, thank you.